tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4315768639043874540.post1471205388414793364..comments2023-05-10T23:23:48.126-05:00Comments on Submission Tyranny, in Church and Society: Proud Bible Thumperswww.wanetadawn.comhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10261516374583209123noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4315768639043874540.post-48010761628331388972011-06-21T00:50:37.288-05:002011-06-21T00:50:37.288-05:00Welcome Incongruous Circumspection! and thanks for...Welcome Incongruous Circumspection! and thanks for your comment, too.www.wanetadawn.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10261516374583209123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4315768639043874540.post-85139240293679282252011-06-16T09:54:03.314-05:002011-06-16T09:54:03.314-05:00W.O.W.!W.O.W.!Incongruous Circumspectionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16232186225573312896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4315768639043874540.post-27117495812769776232010-12-17T01:36:19.468-06:002010-12-17T01:36:19.468-06:00Mara,
"I appreciate you giving me I Timothy ...Mara,<br /><br />"I appreciate you giving me I Timothy 6:3-5 and I Corinthians 11:1. They will be added to my 'favs' list."<br /><br />They've joined my favs list, too. There is so much freedom in the scriptures that we have missed due to the interpretation that has been shoved down our throats! <br /><br />Gene & Mara, I was raised to consider the Bible as history & the instruction manual from God, so it is intriguing to think of the Bible as a witness. I will ponder that more. I've found so much freedom with viewing the Bible as God's direction to us, I wonder if I will lose God-breathed freedom by seeing the Bible as a witness.<br /><br />For example, it was God, through Moses, who set limits on hard-hearted husbands by instituting divorce to protect the wives. That does come under: "It is a witness of God's dealings with man in a dark and broken world." Yet it also shows me the heart of God. <br /><br />My take on much that is in the OT is that men back then were doing what hard-hearted men do today--work the law to their benefit. It used to be husbands would walk away from their wives and children, leaving wives to raise their children alone w/o support. But when the law required them to pay child support, many men decided to keep the children so they could use them as a pawn to further hurt their ex-wives. I think sinful men in OT times did similar things, using good laws to disadvantage women in order to maintain superiority over women. <br /><br />I've been reading Susanna Krizo's "When Dogmas Die" and found that bad as we think Hebrew law was, the laws of surrounding peoples were far worse. The actions of Sara, for example, were in accordance with the laws of the land. If she had not given Hagar to Abraham, he would likely have divorced her or taken another wife because Sara had not produced an heir. Later, when Hagar was trying to raise herself to wife status, contrary to the law, Sara demoted her. Hagar fled rather than return to being a servant. God told her to submit herself to Sara, who apparently was not being abusive. The book is an eye-opener.Waneta Dawnhttp://www.wanetadawn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4315768639043874540.post-37696445878206337802010-12-17T01:15:47.505-06:002010-12-17T01:15:47.505-06:00Gene,
"Those who act like Christ would never ...Gene,<br />"Those who act like Christ would never place another human in bondage and slavery don't know Christ!"<br /><br />Would you please explain/enlarge what you are saying here? Are you saying Christ, himself, would put a person in bondage? How could this be so and not be sin? <br /><br />Further: "Us Southern Christians, by and large, had no problem with slavery because there are passages in the Bible which condone it."<br /><br />Are there passages that "condone" slavery? Or do they simply speak of it as fact? I know there are passages that limit slavery, and that free slaves every so many years--unless the person has chosen to be a permanent slave by having a hole poked in his ear with an awl. <br /><br />"There were many (probably the majority) who treated their slaves with compassion!" <br /><br />Yet did they treat them with respect? Were the slaves allowed to visit relatives and friends when they wanted to? to maintain dignity? To learn to read and write, add and subtract? To learn how to handle and save money? To have any hope for their future? I was under the impression very few were given an education or allowed any hope for their future. From what I read, people who would have been prone to be compassionate to slaves, became dictators once they owned one themselves. It's as if the act of buying and owning another human, perverted their sense of right and wrong. <br /><br />I recommend Jocelyn Andersen's book "Woman this is war: Gender, Slavery, and the Evangelical Caste System." http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Gender-Slavery-Evangelical-System/dp/0979429323/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287153377&sr=1-1 <br /><br />I recently heard a statement by Joyce Meyer, saying that people are mean because they don't know God. <br /><br />"Slavery is not a matter of black ownership. It is a matter of demeaning. I still exists today with a flawed view of women as deserving less pay because they are women / deserving to do the "dirty work" because it is beneath men to do it / always getting the short end of society's outlook on social rank."<br /><br />It seems to me anytime one thinks they own another, they are demeaning them. (we may have to agree to disagree on that one!) That includes the buying/selling of humans (except when one buys in order to give freedom) demeaning people by giving them the "dirty work," lower pay and lower status. It also includes "men work from sun to sun, but a woman's work is never done." <br /><br />Your statements are thought-provoking, Gene. I'd like to know more on how you arrived at your conclusions.Waneta Dawnhttp://www.wanetadawn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4315768639043874540.post-70594763563724417302010-12-16T07:50:04.739-06:002010-12-16T07:50:04.739-06:00This was such a good one, I'm back.
I appreci...This was such a good one, I'm back.<br /><br />I appreciate you giving me I Timothy 6:3-5 and I Corinthians 11:1. They will be added to my 'favs' list.<br /><br />And Gene, I also appreciate your word "witness" to describe the Bible. Duh. What does Testament, as in, last will and testament mean?<br /><br />People try to use the Bible like it's an owner's manuel or like every verse is some sort of law. And they go to it looking for the "trouble-shooting" section on marriage, Ephesians 5:22 to the end (comps conveniently cut off vs 21).<br /><br />People get so silly when they try to make the Bible into something it is not.<br />Does the Bible contain commands? Absolutely.<br />Does the Bible contain good instruction? Absolutely.<br />But is the Bible one big command/instruction manuel from the sky?<br />NO!<br /><br />It is a witness of God's dealings with man in a dark and broken world.Mara Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16385458933795539928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4315768639043874540.post-85072623466032783062010-12-14T00:10:50.689-06:002010-12-14T00:10:50.689-06:00"Here again, they make what Peter says more i..."Here again, they make what Peter says more important that what Jesus says and make Peter's words trump the words of Jesus.<br />They disobey Jesus in order to 'obey' Peter."<br /><br />Great point, Mara! <br />What I find odd about Peter's writing is that if you meditate on it alittle, you remember that Abraham also obeyed Sara. I wonder why Peter didn't point that out in the section written to husbands. Is it because Abraham also did NOT live with Sara according to knowledge when he told her to lie about their relationship?Waneta Dawnhttp://www.wanetadawn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4315768639043874540.post-25299636093515828352010-12-13T06:41:27.530-06:002010-12-13T06:41:27.530-06:00What needs to always be remembered is that Paul, b...What needs to always be remembered is that Paul, by his own description, was a Pharisee of all Pharisees who sought to kill and imprison Christians prior to his Damascas Road experience.<br /><br />The real problem with so many preachers is they can't see the Bible for what it is: a witness.<br /><br />Neither can they realize it is not all equal. The OT points to the Gospels / everything after the Gospels is calling readers to come back to the way of Jesus.<br /><br />The Gospels are the top of the mountain where people can see for themselves our closest picture of God through His Son. That is the basis of our faith declaration essential for salvation = "Jesus is The Christ!"<br /><br />Those who act like Christ would never place another human in bondage and slavery don't know Christ!<br /><br />Us Southern Christians, by and large, had no problem with slavery because there are passages in the Bible which condone it. However, any slave owner who did not treat his slaves as part of the family of God was not following Christ. There were many (probably the majority) who treated their slaves with compassion!<br /><br />Slavery is not a matter of black ownership. It is a matter of demeaning. I still exists today with a flawed view of women as deserving less pay because they are women / deserving to do the "dirty work" because it is beneath men to do it / always getting the short end of society's outlook on social rank.<br /><br />You read it exactly right, Waneta---and back it with Jesus passages!!! How stupid and mis-directed can some people be????Gene Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726662612894104518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4315768639043874540.post-3471037697022139402010-12-11T22:20:38.477-06:002010-12-11T22:20:38.477-06:00As I'm reading you post and thinking about wha...As I'm reading you post and thinking about what you are saying, I come across this:<br /><br />Matthew 23:10-12 “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.<br /><br />Then I remember another favorite verse these comps love. It's that one in Peter where it talks about Sarah calling Abraham 'lord'.<br />Here again, they make what Peter says more important that what Jesus says and make Peter's words trump the words of Jesus.<br />They disobey Jesus in order to 'obey' Peter.<br /><br />It gets freaking old.Mara Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16385458933795539928noreply@blogger.com